Double Angled Lists: Most Hated Countries

Double Angled Lists: Most Hated Countries

So, a new series? Yes! A new series! But why and what is it? It's Double-Angled Lists! What is this thing supposed to be about? Isn't it supposed to be entitled "Triple-Angled Lists"? Anyway, this post series will deal with lists, regardless of it being controversial, with two angles: me, and the rest of TheTopTens community. Anyway, it's not that designed as an interactive post, though people can be free to say something about my opinion and views, and are open for any questions. For the basics, this contains the original/assumed purpose of the list, the view of the rest of the community including the visitors which containst its controversies and other things in question, my view on it and "personal standards" on the list, including a short personal remix of the list, along with a short conclusion about the concerned topic.

So for the first post on the matter, we would talk about one of the most controversial, if not the most controversial of all lists on TheTopTens, not only among the community, but also with the whole of the site, visitors and users. It's the list of Most Hated Countries, which is one of the most popular lists on the site. I know how many users and visitors have a lot of things to say about this list, but let me give my view, summary and any further insights on the list.

(Assumed) Purpose of the List:

Since there is no description written on the list, it is assumed that the list is about, of course, the most hated countries. Simple, isn't it? But what's the problem with the list? People thought that the list was about "Worst Countries" or "Countries I Hate the Most". I myself am guilty of this misinterpretation of the list when I made my remix of this list which was ironically one of the top remixes of the list. However, the point of the list was entirely missed by majority of TheTopTens community, visitors and users alike, since it is supposed to talk about how people hate the countries, and why the countries are hated, and comments are supposed to be done in a third person perspective, and not in a first person perspective in which the user would comment negative remarks against the countries listed. This means that comments are supposed to be like: "They are hated because of..." and not something like "I hate this country because...". It's not like the description said that it's a list of countries hated the most in a collective manner or an individual manner. So basically, the basis of this enitre list isn't specified whether it's about why groups of people hate the country in a collective manner, or why you hate the country yourself. Judging from the title of this list without any description and guide in voting, I would think that voting and commenting should be done in third-person. That would be explained later.

First Angle: Visitors/Other Users/Admin

Multiple users, whether they are non-frequent users, one-timers or frequent/major users on the site, hated this list and criticized it as a "racist list" with undeserved popularity. The list has been a subject of multiple rant posts, wherein there have been at least ten high-quality posts created to address this issue. People would often complain (or even get butthurt) about this list because of numerous reasons. Those reasons include (1) racism, (2) offensive content, (3) having "good" countries that don't deserve being called "worst countries", (4) the list being a reason for having a giant war, (5) not much mention on the countries perceived to be "bad", (6) the thought that no country being better than the other, (7) countries perceived to be "good" sounding like "bad places", (8) hypocrisy, (9) comments being based on opinions backed up with little to no actual facts, (10) judging countries based on the government, (11) bias, (12) countries being hated in the comments, (13) haters trying too hard to degrade the country they hate, and (14), the list being the severe flaw of the policy and Terms of Use.

Such criticism of the list combined with the South Korea vs Japan flame war and other hate comments made this list one of the most popular lists on the site, resulting to people complaining to the site's administrator petitioning the list to be removed due to the abovementioned reasons through a list. Certain people even sent hate comments against Admin thinking that he is an "insensitive hater laughing at how butthurt people are at the hate comments and how they hate on this list". Some users even used the February 26 policy and the Terms of Use against the list to indicate its flaws. However, Admin decided not to delete the list, as stated on his post about concerns on this list, stating that its deletion would basically be blocking opinion flow on this site, and wouldn't change the opinions of the people making the comments. In other words, it's useless to delete the list. With this angle shown, many users would usually hate this list. However, I have a different perspective.

Second Angle: Me (VelitelCabal)

Despite of all these complaints from other users and their petitions for the deletion of this list, I'll take Admin's side, for multiple reasons, as I can refute all 14 reasons given in a petition for deletion of the list. First of all, positive opinions and negative opinions have to be treated equally, as long as they are not argumentum ad hominem attacks. It's the people's choice if they'd like to visit the list of Best Countries instead of the list of Most Hated Countries or even make vacant lists like Best Countries to Live In or Most Loved Countries instead of forcing people to stop having a negative opinion. Second, if you want positive lists, you'd might as well contribute such on the site as you are free to do so. You don't have to keep complaining about the negative lists because those lists also contain opinions. And if that is your opinion or point of view on the subject of positivity and negativity when it comes to opinions, then provide more sensible reasons other than crying like a baby over them. Third, what's the big deal with your very own country being on the list? Every country sucks in its own way and every country is also good in its own way. I'm completely fine with my country being on the list, and I can tolerate the comments against my country. Why would you cry like babies over negative opinions instead of making those people look like morons by winning a debate against them on the given topic? Hell, you can even use their false claims against them! And fourth, we have freedom of speech on the Internet, which means we are free to state our opinion on things, Setting my defense aside, this post would mostly deal with counterarguments that would refute the other side's claims, since they build up my reasons defending this list, which are these 14 reasons mentioned:

(1) The list is racist.

Anyone still playing that "race card"? By definition, the word "racist" is the thinking of a certain race being superior to other races or a certain race being inferior. This also means that when you are racist, you are abusing the people belonging to a certain race and giving diferential treatment to such people and treating them with prejudice. However, the point of the list, like I have said above, is to show how and why the countries are hated, in a third person perspective, which cannot be defined as "racist". If you are talking about the comments, let me talk about that later.

(2) The content of the list is offensive.

Just because the content is deemed as "offensive" is not a valid reason to take down content from the Internet. The people who commented against certain countries in a first-person perspective share their opinions on the countries, and they usually state either negative opinions, facts, false claims, and irrelevant thoughts. First of all, with negative opinions, they don't even count as libel and "defamatory statements", since you cannot prove that the person's opinion is an actual lie and can be proven false. A comment can only be counted as libel if you say a big lie about the country which could be proven false by evidence and research. If someone says "In my opinion the French killed half of the Philippine Population", that's called a defamatory statement and could count as libel and a false claim, since there is no actual evidence supporting this claim, and if you do your research, this is false. About facts that have been proven, when they taint a country's reputation, you can't really have against a person stating an opinion which they base from a fact. Irrelevant thoughts do not even get approved by the site's administrator to be published on the list since they are not even supportive of the topic.

(3) The list has good countries that don't deserve to be called worst.

First of all, define the word "good". People can say anything is good, since it's subjective to them and their standard of which country is good, but there is an objective definition that can be agree with on this list. A "good country" is something that has desirable qualities and of a high standard. However, as I have already stated earlier, the list is not about how hated the country is and not about how bad the country is. If you'll say that why are the "good countries" hated, then you would like to remember that it's a list of most hated countries which would reflect on the negative aspects of a country according to a person's point of view. A country could be praised a lot and hated a lot at the same time.

(4) It could lead to a war.

Who in their sane minds would think that an unofficial poll about hated countries would actually be representative of the opinions of everyone around the world? With or without the list, butthurt people would exist. That also means that a war is inevitable, and it's not like this list would become a deciding factor if such a war would happen. This list is about people's opinions about a country's negative aspects, and we are free to state such opinions on the Internet, because freedom of speech is one of our rights as humans. Always remember that wars are caused by deeper things and not by an unofficial poll.

(5) Bad countries don't get mentioned much.

Like I have stated on reason #3, we should give a definition of a "bad" country that all of us could agree with. The most sensible definition we could have is that a bad country has high corruption rates, low human development index, an inefficient government, and citizens with undesirable traits. However, since it's a list of hated countries, "good" and "bad" countries, by my abovementioned definition, still have an equal chance of being hated, whether the reasons are valid or not. Remember that it's a list of "Most Hated Countries", and not "Countries I Hate the Most", in which the person would likely put those "bad countries" in the latter list I have just mentioned.

(6) No country is better than another.

I believe that this statement is an opinion, and the belief that a certain country is better than the other is also an opinion. Since the site is about opinions, and the Internet is all about freedom of expression, I do not think this is a valid reason to take down the list of Most Hated Countries, not to mention that it's not a list of Best Countries, Worst Countries, or Countries I Hate the Most.

(7) The list makes good countries sound like bad places.

Since I have already given a definition of what a "good" country is, I still believe that every country, no matter how "good" it is, still has its pros and cons. I have always stated this in my other blog posts, and the fact that certain issues hurt a country's reputation does not mean that emphasis of such issues is a bad thing. The list focuses on the cons of each country, which are emphasized in this list. Like I have said, good countries could receive as much hatred as the bad countries depending on the person's point of view regarding the disadvantages of certain countries and the issues that tarnish their reputation.

(8) The list is hypocritical.

How is this list even hypocritical? Just because someone says that a country is bad, considering that the person's country is also "equally bad" doesn't make the list hypocritical. It's not a list of "Reasons why ______ is a Bad Country" where people can add reasons that defeat the purpose of the list or puts hypocritical reasons on the list. It's only the comments that could be hypocritical, wherein you can just question the validity of the person's opinion. Anyone can point out flaws of certain countries, and they could exchange points of view regarding the topic, promoting thoughtful discussion. It's not hypocritical. It's like someone saying that his friend has flaws, and that that friend of his points out the flaws of the former. If they find the same flaws with each other, they'd simply acknowledge it. The same thing goes with this list. If isn't hypocritical. Only certain comments could be, but not the list.

(9) Comments are based on opinions and not actual facts.

We're on a site based on opinions, and while this is a site based on opinions, a better way of voting on this list and remixing it would be giving reasons why it is hated, and then cite controversies, issues and other unfortunate incidents which are proven facts, which justify your claim. This list is a subjective list, but still jascto be based on facts so your opinion could at least be more respectable. Even if it's your opinion, at least you were able to use your freedom of expression on the Internet in such a way that you are making sense.

(10) Countries are judged by their governments.

I'll have to admit, my remix on this list mostly emphasizes the government and other international or domestic issues regarding the countries I have listed, but I have realized that a country cannot solely be hated due to its government. You'll hate a country more when you meet people who generally behave worse, have a low human development index, and have a corrupt government than a country which just has a repressive government, but has people who act positively towards you. It's just a matter of weighing down things to determine if you hate a certain country more than another. However, since the list is supposed to be about the Most Hated Countries, the general opinion of people towards the country's respective governments should not be the only factor to be taken into consideration. I have already stated socio-economic which should also be equally emphasized.

(11) The list is biased

What do you mean "biased"? The whole list itself, or the remixes? Because if you'd look at the topic of the list, the ideal list you'd likely think of would be unbiased, based on facts and somewhat objective standards. As for the list here on TheTopTens, of course there would be bias, due to the number of voters respective of their nationality. It's not something that people should complain about, because you can also share your opinion by creating a personal remix on the list, adding their opinion and certain bias. And for the list itself, the only way you can validly complain about bias is when Admin disapproves certain comments because of a biased reason, like Admin disapproving negative remarks about America and still approving the negative remarks against other countries which are equally degrading. This means that while the list could be biased, it's not an official poll and each user or visitor voting on the list contributes on the overall ranking of the countries listed. Everyone put their own bias, also known as their opinions. Note that there is no opinion that is completely unbiased, hence the classification of the list being a subjective list you could vote on.

(12) Countries are getting hated in the comments.

As I have stated earlier, hating is an opinion. A negative opinion. And such an opinion is something you are free to express on the Internet, as it is one of your rights. As for the countries getting hated on the comments, which defeats the purpose of the list, remember that the comments are not the deciding factor of why the list should be removed. It's about the purpose and topic of the list. If the list was made to troll people, because of the list title being controversial in nature, the list would most likely get removed. However, if the list is thoroughly justified with acceptable claims and arguments, then no matter how controversial the list would be, the list would be approved as it is not a violation of the Terms of Use. Not to mention that I'm totally fine with my very own country getting hated; it's their opinion, and I could respect it, as long as the hate is justified. I'm not butthurt with people who back up their negative opinions towards my country.

(13) Haters try too hard to degrade the country they hate.

First of all, the word hater isn't a degrading word, and as for how countries get degraded by the comments, while that is not the point of the list, I'd advice that if you want to say that you hate a certain country, don't just try using insults or act like you are butthurt over the people or the government. It makes more sense to give evidence backing up your opinion, which is hating a certain country, so you would at least be more logical with your point of view and it would be respected.

(14) The list shows a massive violation of the policy and terms of use.

The list is not a violation of the Policy and the Terms of Use. As it has been said in the terms, the site prohibits content solely posted to anger certain members, personal attacks aimed at members of the site that inhibit the user from enjoying the site. Remember that this list is not aimed at a certain person, and not much ad hominem attacks between certain users take place. While there would be some that are not yet deleted, the policy violation isn't nearly as bad or evident. As for the bot voting on the list which gave South Korea and Japan the most votes on the list, this cannot count as the list itself being a violation or the Terms of Use in exploiting the voting mechanisms on the list. That would be taken against the visitors, not against the creator of the list, unless the creator him/herself takes part of the bot voting. If the list is voted on legitimately with a South Korean and Japanese majority, then you can just make and view your own personal remix and not look at the main list. Just look at the other remixes which are more reliable to look at. And as for the "criminal" content which the list can be accused of, I have already stated above that the comments cannot be considered as defamatory and libelous content, and that those are just opinions of different people. For the "offensive" matter, the word "offensive" as said in the Terms of Use means "posting content intended for the sole purpose of eliciting negative responses", and not the word "offensive" as stated in #2 which meant "mean and hurting feelings". That being said, the list is in no way violating the Terms of Use of the site.

Potential Counterarguments/Flaws:

Flaw #1: There are two types of remixes and comments that can be created on this list.

Yes, and with this argument, I am guilty of making a remix that we should agree to call as the Type A published content of this list, which contains why I hate the country, which is more like content supporting a list of "Countries that Individual People Hate the Most" or "Countries I Hate the Most". This is the case with of most of the comments published on the list, whether it's defended with facts or not. The Type B published content of this list contains why the countries are hated by certain groups of people, and the extent of the hate presented by those groups. So basically, content on the list is done on the third-person point of view. So how would such content be subjective? Remixes would vary in ranking, according to each person's perception of "which method of hating is more intense in hating". Since there is no description and voters would judge based on the title of the list, Type B content, as I have mentioned above, would be more sensible to make.

Flaw #2: Voters do not make enough research before they make comments, remixes and cast their votes.

This has already been a problem with most lists, as well. Citing your sources and references are not required by this site on lists classified as objective lists. On subjective lists such as this list called "Most Hated Countries", wherein subjective lists are defined as lists which could vary in ranking and can be remixed and voted on, people can simply make comments on the list without the site administrators verifying the factual accuracy of the content uploaded. Even if this is one flaw of the voting system on the list that affects list ranking, it is still not a valid reason to take down the list since you can make your personal remix on the list that anybody can view. All you have to do is to make it as convincing as possible so people can just choose to ignore the ranking of the list and just view the remixes which are actually done reasonably. However, it is still up to the users if they would still like to make quality comments on the main list or they would just make their own remixes.

Potential Question #1: Did you remember the "Blood-Stained Singapore" blog started a rift between the Singaporeans and the Filipinos where the latter was outraged by the blog?

Yes. I remember that incident back in 2014. However, this incident is in no way similar to the case with this list. While the list has content that could be deemed as "racist", the (assumed) intent of the creator of the list is to state either the negative aspects of countries or to state the reasons why people hate the country, and not to promote any. while in the case of the blog, it had the intent to anger Filipino people in such a way that the methods used to piss them off wouldn't constitute a criminal offense. However, the method used to encourage such actions, whether those actions were criminal offenses or not, is already the criminal offense committed, where content was posted online for the sole purpose of angering certain people, where in this case, it is the Filipinos. While I do recognize such a difference, I still agree that a list of "Ways to Anger Filipinos" is totally acceptable on this site as long as the purpose of the list is not solely intended to anger Filipino people. It could even be done for humor. But why have I emphasized this issue? It is because people could actually say that words on a screen that is composed of opinions could cause a war or some tension between certain countries. And if you want another question with freedom of speech....

Potential Question #2: With rights come responsibilities.

While we have the right to speak freely because we have the freedom of speech, we also have responsibilities with these rights. As for this list and also with the blog, I believe that nobody should be arrested for their opinions, most especially the negative opinions, and they could be expressed in public, as long as it does not literally encourage people to commit crimes (and also that the opinion is not stated for the sole purpose of eliciting a negative response or outrage among people.) It has also been stated that nobody shall be arrested solely for their political views and their opinions on certain things, whether they may be considered racist or not. The responsibility on the right to free speech is about you intentionally spreading lies to the public or that you are abusing such freedom to encourage criminal acts or state your opinion or stating your opinion while committing a violation of the law. This of course does not mean that "Ways to Kill" lists should be removed. Such a list is just created as a joke and does not have any serious intent of encouraging criminal acts. It's basically like making a list of "Ways to Anger Filipinos" where the items could be illegal methods or not. It's just a matter of words and nobody is supposed to seriously commit such actions.

My Personal Remix of the List Following the abovementioned standard: (explanations will be written on the actual remix soon)

10. Germany
9. Iran
8. Syria
7. India
6. Mexico
5. Saudi Arabia
4. United States of America
3. Russia
2. China
1. North Korea

Conclusion:

So to end this post stating my point of view on the list topic and also the list itself, I would like to conclude that while there is no stated purpose of creating the list and how you are advised to vote, remix and comment on the list. And by personal inference, we can simply state that the list is not necessarily created with the sole intention of getting negative responses from the community. This is why descriptions have to be put into lists no matter how self-explanatory you'd think they are. As I have stated in the entire post, the list is about the most hated countries which is not the same as the worst countries. For the people complaining about the list turning into a clone of the Worst Countries list, you'd might as well take action and create efforts in restoring the supposed nature of the list by creating reasonable and decent content which are more worthy of respect than the other remixes and content. After all, TheTopTens list content like comments and remixes are created by practically anyone who visits the site, just like you. The flow of opinions concerning this topic shouldn't be blocked, as I have already explained, and remember that every country has flaws, or call it pros and cons that you could point out. If you want clarifications, suggestions and questions to ask me, feel free to do so in the comments.

Comments

I don't know what to think of the list. I mean, it's an interesting list in and of itself, but the incompetence of everyone involved in it destroyed any hope the list may have had. I don't think I need to say more than: "it's an unofficial poll you numbnuts". This just shows the hyperreactiveness of a lot of users, and it's embarrassing. Amazing post, Velite, you never cease to amaze. - WonkeyDude98

Thanks! - visitor

Well I misinterpreted - Martinglez

You misinterpreted the point of the list? Lol - visitor

Yeah - Martinglez

At least this post exists now. - visitor

My mind is blown. - Anonymousxcxc

Because of hypersensitive people? - visitor

I agree 100%. We shouldn't have to make changes just so a few babies will stop complaining. If you don't want your feelings hurt, just don't look at the list or get off the damn website. This list wasn't made just to piss you off, as much as you like to say it was. - AngryByrd

^what he said - RiverClanRocks

You should show these to your language teachers. Hey, maybe you could be a professional debater someday! - RiverClanRocks

I agree that people misinterpreted the list so hard - bobbythebrony

So hard that I had to make this post as long as the Terms of Use Page. - visitor

I thought it didn't deserve controversy when I read the title, cause it means which countries are hated the most, not countries that are the worst or deserve hate. It's actually the people misinterpreting and writing offensive stuff about the countries, but hating a country and hating it's people are two different things, but it is racist if you hate the country for the people who live there. - Skullkid755

You can hate a country because of its people. However, that doesn't mean that you have to hate all the people. Take note of China. I hate its government, and I hate its people. That's why I dislike China the most among all countries, though I acknowledge that there are many good things from China, even some of its people. It's just that you hate on something which is a collective term, and not hating individuals. - visitor

The offensive comments and stuff written on it are what deserve hate, not the list itself. - Skullkid755

Uh..."offensive" comments don't deserve hate for the sole stupid reason of it being 'offensive' where the word is definee as "something that could hurt feelings". - visitor

Racist comments then. - Skullkid755

As long as it's an opinion in which the "racist" thing isn't something where defamatory and degrading action towards other races isn't done, I don't think it deserves hate unless there really is a legitimately valid reason to hate it. - visitor

On the bright side, North Korea is 1st place now and not Japan. North Korea has WAY more reasons why it is hated than Japan. Such as *cough*the government spending money on military purposes and nuclear weapons rather than the welfare of their own people*cough. - ModernSpongeBobSucks

*claps* - visitor

Thanks for the applause, @sketchysteve. - ModernSpongeBobSucks

The list is nothing more but a huge p.o.s. The only reason it never got removed is because it's sadly very popular to vote on. - UltimateHybridX

Yeah, because apparently my opinions on certain countries is nothing more but a huge "p.o.s."

People CHOSE to make it popular by voting on it. It's actually one of my most favorite lists because I learn about the negative side of each country. Even if my very own country where I live in is there, certain accusations made are true. I don't find anything so bad with this list except false claims. That's it.

There are NO valid grounds for the removal of this list. Did you even read the post? - visitor

This list is not offensive, it's fact. Some of the comments go a bit far but that's not the fault of the list or the list maker. - IronSabbathPriest

I actually like this list. In fact, the comments against my country are interesting! - visitor

Well, about time that somebody figured out this list. - Delgia2k

Wow completely agree and I think the list should stay.but India isn't hated that* much,beside the corruption,infastructure and a few safety issues (at night especially for ladies)its actually a really nice place and goa is really the best and safest,you could walk late at night without any worries(but for safety reasons I wouldn't recommend it).
Sources-I live in India...duh! - Toucan

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