Vote Rigging/Choice Editing

Note: This post was previously a thread on the since retired TheTopTens forum.

Perhaps i am jumping the gun a little here, but in regard to "Singers You'd Like to Perform at the 2012 London Olympics Opening Ceremonies" http://www.the-top-tens.com/lists/singers-perform-london-olympics-opening-ceremonies-3.asp <<<< there was a choice that was clearly acceptable to yourselves, as when choices are added we recieve "Thank you for your input. Hatsune Miku will be added to this list as soon as we have had a chance to review it. If you have another suggestion for this list, please add it below" as a response.

now, the choice "hatsune miku" had been reviewed and added to the list of votable choices, and for a while it was sat around #22 between TVXQ and Miley Cirus. it was there, it was votable, and it has now vanished off the face of the earth. Granted, she is not the typical singer/performer, but she is a singer/performer in her own right

Comments

I agree with you 100%. I voted for Miku (who sat at #22) 20 minutes before I heard that she want missing off the list. And when I looked I couldn't find her anywhere! They obviously removed her for some reason, and I want to know why and have her back on the list (as she deserves to be). - visitor

Concerts with Hatsune Miku have sold out before now, and have even had to be expanded to cope with the demand, further to that, Hatsune Miku has appeared in Advertisements for Famous brands like Toyota, and their new corolla.

So come on there is no need to blatently deny us a choice that the public have made, a choice that even yourselves initially deemed acceptable - visitor

Miku Hatsune shouldn't have been taken off the list. Sure, she isn't "real", in the sense that she isn't a human being, but it adds more interest to the Olympics, no? What's more attention-grabbing than a virtual diva performing live in the Olympics for the first time? Besides, having Miku perform shows how technology is rapidly developing, and it shows how modern our world has become. She's perfect! She's as or maybe even more entertaining than most performers in the list too. - visitor

We appreciate your concern over the synthesizer application Hatsune Miku being removed from the list after it had already been approved, but it wasn't until after the item had already been approved that we discovered that Miku is not a person.

We recognize that many people are fans of Miku and consider it to be a "performer", "musician", and a "singer", and we discussed whether or not she should be categorized as so. What ultimately made our decision is the fact that, by itself, the Miku software does not actually make an audible sound.

According to dictionary.com, a singer is "a person who sings, especially a trained or professional vocalist". A singer may also be something like a bird that creates a melodic noise, or even a machine that generates an audible whine. Depending on which definition you want to use, a singer can be used to describe a variety of things, but there is one thing that they all have in common - the creation of sound.

Miku on the other hand does not create sound. It generates instructions that can be used by a computer to tell audio speakers how to produce a sound. It is a merely a tool that can be used by people to help create music, and while it is an exceptional tool, it is more akin to an electronic keyboard, GarageBand, or Auto-Tune than it is a singer.

Saying that Miku is a singer is like saying that a pencil is an artist or a chisel is a sculpter.

We recognize that this post will certainly fail to appease all those who are upset about Miku being removed from the list, but we still feel that the rationale is solid. We apologize to everyone who had voted for Miku before it was removed from the list. - admin

So you allow your admins to approve additions without any sort of research? And they're free to simply remove any approved submissions at will? I'm sorry, but that is an extremely flawed system.

You try to pass off your site as a fair representation of our opinions. But your own actions have clearly contradicted that.

And if you insist on using your current argument (and a very flawed one at that), then I suggest you triple check the current list. There are at least a dozen more entries listed that don't even produce vocals. Yet you are allowing them to remain on the voting page. Can you say "hypocrites"?

If you took the time to take down Hatsune Miku as an afterthought, I think you can put the effort to remove the other unfair entries.

Since this list isn't even used for any sort of official means, your site has nothing to gain by her removal. Except for a lot of very angry messages.

And lastly, Hatsune Miku was not on the list to represent herself. She was on that list to represent every single artist and fan within the Vocaloid community. Removing her has been an insult aimed at the millions of producers and fans around the world. - visitor

If this truly is only a matter of voting and opinion among the fans then what truly is the harm? By removing Hatsune Miku the administration thoughtlessly angered many fans (including myself) for their own bias of singers. While not a "real singer" by the standards of yourselves, Hatsune Miku is a singer in her own right by the co-operation and hard work of legions of fans. She should be added back to the list for these reasons. - visitor

Aren't admins suppose to review then approved the nominee? So why you have approved her from the start then remove her after? Seriously, she was made to be a singer, they are still using a person with experience in order for her voice to sound like other singers out there. Besides just look at her votes. Being a singer doesn't really have to be a "human" Look at her concerts and fans plus look at her supporters as a singer. Isn't the same how people teach singers to sing and we are doing the same thing for Miku. Put her back. The public demands it. Besides she represents Japan. - visitor

"So you allow your admins to approve additions without any sort of research? "

We do a quick check for things like spelling errors and to verify that the addition exists, is appropriate for the list, etc. , but there are instances where things can slip through the cracks. We have had nearly 20,000 new item submissions already this month. Even if we spend as little as 30 seconds "researching" each new item, that amounts to over 160 man hours spent researching. For a free site, it is simply not practical to designate that much time and resources.

"And they're free to simply remove any approved submissions at will? "

No, we have made it clear that the removal was not made on a whim.

"here are at least a dozen more entries listed that don't even produce vocals. Yet you are allowing them to remain on the voting page. Can you say "hypocrites"? "

If you would be willing to point out some of these entries, we'd be happy to review them.

"Since this list isn't even used for any sort of official means, your site has nothing to gain by her removal. Except for a lot of very angry messages. "

Easily the most rational argument made so far. We will reinstate Miku based on this idea. - admin

And here I thought you guys were aware of the poll rigging and took her off because of it. If you're going to add her back, can you at least put her back to around 70 where she was originally? There are people from a certain website who have been using a script to spam votes for her. How else did she shoot up to 20ish in just 2 days? The script is as follows:

VERSION BUILD=7401110 RECORDER=FX
TAB T=1
CLEAR
URL GOTO=http://www.The-top-tens.com/lists/singers-perform-london-olympics-opening-ceremonies.asp
TAG POS=1 TYPE=DIV ATTR=ONCLICK:recordvote('385450', '99638')&&CLASS:addvote
CLEAR
REFRESH

For iMacros (Firefox Add-on)

Or you could at least make voting IP restricted, because it looks like it's cookie based right now and people can just clear cookies and vote again. - visitor

"Miku on the other hand does not create sound. It generates instructions that can be used by a computer to tell audio speakers how to produce a sound. It is a merely a tool that can be used by people to help create music, and while it is an exceptional tool, it is more akin to an electronic keyboard, GarageBand, or Auto-Tune than it is a singer"

Actually... Hatsune Miku is a database of audio clips that cover different notes with majors and minors, and crossovers between 2 notes... A voicebank if you will. The Vocaloid software is the program that strings all the clips together. Hatsune Miku itself is a digitally preserved human voice. Sounds from an electric keyboard are purely electronically generated, as with garageband. Autotune is a post producton software that relies on distorting what is already there... None of these are comparable and if research had been truely done, then this much would have been realised - visitor

"There are people from a certain website who have been using a script to spam votes for her".

If this is true, then couldn't other script/s be used in the same way to spam votes for other nominees? Because if a script can be used to spam Miku's votes then the same can be done for all of the artists on the list, not just Miku. So don't just single out one very deserving artist when the same thing could be happening to ALL of them. - visitor

I missed that one, typical singling out of something that is not widely understood... Don't you feel good... In my opinion macro/script generated votes occur moreso on the more popular choices, as there are far more people voting and therefore more people who are capable of creating macros for it

I am just sick of people dismissing something they have minimal attempt to acknowledge or understand... When the accepted deffinition was made, something like hatsune miku proberably never crossed anyones minds, as it simply did not exist at the time... Times change, people learn... Everyday, new things are discovered and rediscovered, even things that make us define and redefine how we see the world... Things can, do and always will change... - visitor

Gwerty, that script does work to vote multiple times, but that does not mean the votes are counted. All it really does is put such a strain on the server that the people are legitimately trying to vote are unable to. It has probably cause Miku to have fewer votes than she would have normally. - visitor

Well MR. Admin. It seems iTunes considers Miku to be a valid singer. She just topped their chars with her newest single for the 1st time beating out several American artists.

http://img3.Sankakustatic.com/wp-content/gallery/safe-misc-xii/miku-number-1-1. Jpg

"It generates instructions that can be used by a computer to tell audio speakers how to produce a sound"

Doesn't the Human brain do the exact same thing? Doesn't it send singles and instructions to the lungs, voice box, mouth and tongue to produce different sound, tones, and notes as an audible sound?
Our's may be bio-electrical and Miku's electo-Mechanical. But I don't see why that should have knocked her off the list that time. - visitor

Seems Admin's perception about singer still intact with the old style, human sing = singer. Bad singer = singer.

So you mean good song created by holographic diva with more than 100.000+ songs, heard by more than million people with PV, illustration, choreograph = not singer.

Admin, you need to rephrase your word dictionary about singer. Staying with old lame definition of singer is lame.

Worlds is changing, and moving towards future. Hatsune Miku (the Sounds of Future) prove it.
Or you prefer hear JB song? :laugh out loud:

Comparing Miku or other Vocaloids with JB is just... Nonsense. One does not simply compare goddess to JB.

And if you see past as learning preferences, then why you try to kick miku, again? 8-) simply, you try to get yourself killed. Right? - visitor

Don't be so unfair!
She sounds good, right?. That is why she have so many fans and votes!

This is a big chance to let know this software to the world, just because you can't talk with her she is not available to sign there?
A lot of people prefer Muku over Miley Cyrus or Biber or that kind of not-talented persons who are human beings but not great singers with grat songs!
Miku is a lot of effort by a lot of people! Her songs are writen by humans for humans!

Please take Mikus Hatsune back to the vote!
If she doesn't win is because she doesn't have enough votes, but at least is a fair competition! :cry: - visitor

Usagisama68 wrote:"There are people from a certain website who have been using a script to spam votes for her".

If this is true, then couldn't other script/s be used in the same way to spam votes for other nominees? Because if a script can be used to spam Miku's votes then the same can be done for all of the artists on the list, not just Miku. So don't just single out one very deserving artist when the same thing could be happening to ALL of them.

Totally agree! I have no idea why the hell they acuse Miku!
If that kind of scripts exists they certainly can be used over other artists!

Looks like admins are afraid to Miku if she wins!
She sounds good, and her software is the future!
Don't be afraid of her! Her popularity is real! - visitor

This was not fair for Miku...
Miku is the singer in the feeling in everyone were her fans
The singer was not just people/person/or some living thing else
It could be a program because SOMEONE MADE IT TO REPLACE THEMSELVES TO SING... Maybe they couldn't singing more, bad voice or something but...
They send their emotional to Miku...
They were the creator for every people who couldn't sing
They sent it... You understand me?
MAYBE SHE WAS NOT EVEN REAL, BUT SHE WAS REAL IN EVERY FAN'S HEART
I'm a Vietnamese people, maybe I'm not really good in English
But I believe in Miku who can sing and can be believed.
You can't remove her in the toptens list - visitor

Admin wrote:We appreciate your concern over the synthesizer application Hatsune Miku being removed from the list after it had already been approved, but it wasn't until after the item had already been approved that we discovered that Miku is not a person.

We recognize that many people are fans of Miku and consider it to be a "performer", "musician", and a "singer", and we discussed whether or not she should be categorized as so. What ultimately made our decision is the fact that, by itself, the Miku software does not actually make an audible sound.

According to dictionary.com, a singer is "a person who sings, especially a trained or professional vocalist". A singer may also be something like a bird that creates a melodic noise, or even a machine that generates an audible whine. Depending on which definition you want to use, a singer can be used to describe a variety of things, but there is one thing that they all have in common - the creation of sound.

Miku on the other hand does not create sound. It generates instructions that can be used by a computer to tell audio speakers how to produce a sound. It is a merely a tool that can be used by people to help create music, and while it is an exceptional tool, it is more akin to an electronic keyboard, GarageBand, or Auto-Tune than it is a singer.

Saying that Miku is a singer is like saying that a pencil is an artist or a chisel is a sculpter.

We recognize that this post will certainly fail to appease all those who are upset about Miku being removed from the list, but we still feel that the rationale is solid. We apologize to everyone who had voted for Miku before it was removed from the list.

The hell are you talking about? , Hatsune Miku its a prerecorded voice bank of the seiyuu "Saki Fujita", of course its a human voice, as human as any other autotuned, synthesized artists that is included in the top 10 list...

Just look at lady gaga, she sings so bad in live concerts compared to the synthesized songs she sells on ther albums...

I see those synthesized/autotuned songs perfectly equal to the prerecorded voicebank of Saki Fujita.

In other words you guys are just playing with the definitions to get Miku out of the poll, revealing your personal interests. - visitor

ADMIN had no choice but to put Miku back on the voting list. 8-) They were contradicted so many times that they knew what they said made no sense. They just didn't want her up there. But Miku Fans always know how to get her back where she belongs. I want to thank everyone that did this for her. You guys are true fans. I know any fan of Miku would do this. Again THANK YOU GUYS & :D :laugh out loud: - visitor

I am forming a petition not for this website but towards the Oympic Games representitives. If anyone wants to help or sign for the petition my facebook page is http://www.Facebook.com/mikufans1 - visitor

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