Best Nu-Metal Bands
Linkin Park provided enhanced nu metal bringing in more sounds (not the most default guitar tones, but the molten and a little downright music patterns) but I could dismiss those facts and disguise them in their deep music and compositions that set a high response among the listeners. They don't highly depend on guitar solos but other guitar riffs that brad delson has been giving us owing to the type of music they make. And I must say every music they have made has blend in well with the rock genre no matter if there is no real rock. Also they have given us variety exploring their music to another sound that also could appeal to the minds of the listeners. Their new album is not metal but alternative rock but again they could live up to their clout. Linkin Park are away from the other bands and are very fun to listen to. Folks should definitely listen to them.
Linkin Park not only didn't capture fame, but they capture peoples attention and praise because there music is very modernised and sounded brand new. Although there first two albums were nearly 20 years ago which is weird to think to think about, Linkin Park made people compromised their sound and music three genres which is very rare to do, any they made people who like other genres like the one that Linkin Park were apart of which was Nu Metal. With Chester's immortal screaming and his vocals and also Mike's rapping and background vocals, everything just seemed to fall into place for them and that is why they are the best Nu Metal band ever and the best band in the past 20 years. RIP Chester Bennington
Linkin Park isn't nu-metal. They sound like a mix of rap, rock and electronic in my opinion. I really think it's silly people call Linkin Park nu-metal. In fact, I think the whole label of nu-metal is silly. The sound of the bands under the label of "nu-metal" varies too much. Linkin Park, like I said before, sounds like a mix of rap, rock and electronic. Korn sounds like a funky hard rock band or something similar, and Deftones sounds like alternative metal or arguably experimental rock. Really the nu-metal label is pointless because the bands sound too different. Also, Slipknot shouldn't be in this list, they are terrible.
Seriously? SERIOUSLY?! You all picked them for number one?! Their first album was good, sure. Their second album was ok. Every thing else they've done barely deserves to be called rock music much less nu metal! Honestly I don't understand how people can even respect them anymore. I think they seriously sold out for the more trendy fans. The music they've been making is so tame and fake! Yet here they sit at number one on this list. I think it tells me all I need to know about this generation of rock music fans and why the music along with the bands and stations that play them have all gone
How. I repeat HOW. Are Linkin Park Number 1. Korn invented NU Metal (according to music "professionals") but Korn are not the cliche nu metal sound. Korn pioneered the sound and hit fame before Linkin Park were even a thing. Not only are Korn the inventors but they are have much more quality and talent than LP.
But that being said. What I know Nu Metal to be are bands like Limp Bizkit, Saliva, Papa Roach and Drowning Pool. Korn are more Hard Rock/Alternative Metal.
Plus. 20+ year career with consistently high record sales and debut chart entries. Linkin Park may have started in the Nu Metal genre but are now the polar opposite.
Korn have stayed true.
Their first two albums were groundbreaking for hardrock/heavy metal in general. I think it wasn't till their third album that I would call them nu metal. I like korn (for the most part) except for most of the untouchables album (Jon D actually says he doesn't like that album himself in an interview) but I really miss their old style. I've basically split them into two separate bands in my mind: the first two albums and then everything else they've done. I like both but really would like to see Jon D go back to his dark as Hell roots for an entire album. They deserve the top 5.
Literally every band ripped off Korn after the 1994 debut. They were one of the first to tune down super low to play heavy. They ushered in a whole new sound that was beyond ahead of its time. Everything after that is a knockoff, even though some bands like Deftones and Sevendust still did their own version of that sound. Linkin Park, the current number one, are just a cheap knockoff of the sound. Yes they have some cool songs. It they are highly unoriginal, late to the scene, and very mediocre after the first two records.
Linking Park? Number 1? There music isn't anywhere as near as good as KoRn's! KoRn's music (expecially the earlier stuff) was raw, pure and extremely unique. Not only is KoRn a better band then Linkin Park, they're more "Nu-metal". KoRn has always been experimenting with new genres to mix with metal, hell, they have a whole album based on dubstep, they have bagpipes in certain songs of there's and Jonathan Davis has some of the most diverse and brilliant vocals I've every heard. So what are you waiting for? Vote for KoRn!
Slipknot has always been a NU METAL band. They have a few alternative metal songs but a large chunk of their discography is loaded with songs bearing defining characteristics of NU METAL.
What made Slipknot stand out from most Nu Metal artists is that they take more influence from Extreme Metal sub-genres (Namely Thrash and Death), which made the band stand out more and develop its own identity and fame, which heavily worked in its favor (Most Nu Metal bands were more influenced by 90s Grunge acts).
And while Slipknot were primarily Nu Metal from their self-title debut to "Iowa", they took a more Traditional Heavy Metal/softer route with "The Subliminal Verses" and went straight Heavy Metal with "All Hope is Gone".
While aggressive, Slipknot has a few songs that are stylistically Alternative Rock (Namely "Snuff" and "Vermillion Pt. 2") as well, thus their musical direction is quite varied.
Personally, only the first two albums are primarily Nu Metal. While Nu Metal elements can be found in later works except "All Hope is Gone", Slipknot it for the most part, a Heavy Metal band with influences from Alternative Rock, Hard Rock, Thrash Metal and Death ...more
When it comes down to it, Slipknot does not consider themselves nu metal. But, they very much are. Slipknot is, in my opinion and many others', the best nu metal band to grace music. They have the perfect combination of talent and originality to influence any other metal band who wants a huge fan base. If you listen to their early music: Iowa, Mate. Feed. Kill. Repeat. , Self-titled (Slipknot), then you will understand what I mean when I say nobody really touched where they were; even today nobody has. All I can say is listen to everything by them and everybody else on this chart as I have, then tell me they don't deserve the top. In my opinion, System of A Down is more Metal than they are Nu Metal. Same goes for Slipknot. But... When it comes down to it, Slipknot had the biggest influence on Nu Metal. Thank you. R.I. P Paul Gray.
My username is one of their songs, I think you know how I feel about them. I mean honestly Linkin Park can't even compare to the raw power that these guys create together. Slipknot and Iowa established their rip-your-face-off-with this song attitude and then Vol. 3 The Subliminal Verses established their more melodic side. All Hope Is Gone and.5 the Gray Chapter were worthy additions to their discography as well, if not as good as the first 3 albums. Anyone who says Korn or Linkin Park can compare to Slipknot is clearly lying. I mean, just go to one of their concerts if that is what it's going to take, because they are about the best concerts you can go to (really they're awesome). Bump Slipknot up to number one please. They are the best.
It's highly debatable whether they're indeed strictly Nu-Metal. Considering there's not a single rapped line in any of their songs as well as the fact that they themselves denied this label. I think the media gave them this label because they peaked exactly during the Nu-Metal scene.
Personally, I think they're just Alternative Metal with Armenian Folk influences.
Excellent band, nonetheless.
Don't understand atand how they Nu Metal completely. Nu Metal is Rap Metal, never thought it was but I like em so much, I'll give em a vote on this list.
Why are Linkin Park and Limp Bizkit even on the list? They are mediocre at best when compared to bands like System of a Down and Deftones. Listen to System of a Down's debut album and then listen to all of Linkin Park's albums. LP's albums will leave you with the thought of "Why the hell did I waste my time listening to this mediocrity when System of a Down's DEBUT album blows all their stuff out the water."
I don't even consider System of a Down nu metal, I think they have their own genre. They're amazing, and honestly shouldn't be on this list. But since they are, whatever, I'll vote them up anyways since their better than all these bands here even though a good amount of these other bands are pretty good (korn, disturbed, I'm sure there are much more)
I have honestly never really thought of them as a Nu-Metal band. White Pony and the albums after that aren't even close to Nu-Metal.
Deftones are probably the only nu-metal band that chose to evolve. They were Nu-Metal for a couple of albums but had such strong influences and a broad artistic vision they were able to provide something outside of a fad that lasted about as long as JNCO jeans and wallet chains were fashionable. I wore that but I'd never wear it today, just like I look back at bands like Limp Bizkit and Papa Roach and wonder to myself why did I and all my friends listen to that. Those bands didn't have the resonating power that the Deftones have had which is what makes them truly a great band.
The main sound of what is recognized as Nu-Metal and the genre's general style began with both Korn and Deftones. If it weren't for those two groups, Nu Metal may not have even been a type of music or at least would not be known as well as it is. Having that said, it's these 2 bands that deserve the most credit in terms of the nu metal genre, however the difference between the two is that Deftones certainly stands out more. Over the years their music increased on how distinctive they are and up until now they continue to be more unique than ever.
Without Deftones, Nu-Metal wouldn't even be what it is. Deftones (along with Korn) were the birth of Nu Metal. The genre became a type of music because of them and other bands but it all started with Deftones. And the greatest thing is; Deftones are one of the very few bands to have evolved from the sound of nu metal into a alternative style and IN A GOOD WAY. When they made changes, it was a cool way to transform, showing that they took their music to a whole new different level.
First album is great. Other albums are good too but to me, although I like them, their songs start to sound the same to me on their last couple of albums. Still good stuff it's just that while the singer has a unique sound there's just not much range as far as style goes. He does the same thing in every album and every song. It sounds good and is done well but there's nothing new. That's not necessarily a bad thing if u really, really like them and like that unique sound they have but it would be great to hear him try to do some more heavy vocals/screams and experiment with his singing voice more.
Disturbed is no doubt, better then all of these bands. People with real taste in music will agree with me. I might agree with Linkin Park being on top, if it weren't for there new album, which totally ruined my respect for Linkin Park, what ever happened to that awesome ROCK sound, now they're all techno... What. Disturbed has so many great songs, you can't even choose which you like the best for example, Warrior or Indestructible? Stricken or Inside the Fire? In my opinion, Down with the Sickness is towards the bottom of their greatest songs.
1. DISTURBED-every song is great from them
2. BULLET FOR MY VALENTINE-your betrayal, tears don't fall, scream aim fire, waking the demon, hand of blood, the last fight, all these things I hate, fever, eye of the storm, heart burst into fire...
3. AVENGED SEVENFOLD-beast and the harolt, scream, bat country, nightmare, afterlife, almost easy, unholy confessions, welcome to the family...
4. SYSTEM OF A DOWN-chop suey, toxicity, sugar, byob, aerials, hypnotize, lonley day, pluck, atwa...
5. SLIPKNOT-wait and bleed, before I forget, psychosocial, eyeless, sulfur, left behind, the nameless, pulse of the maggots...
Get Linkin Park off of this list. Disturbed is the greatest Nu metal band by a long shot. Coolest riffs and guitar work, best singer, best lyrics, best SONGS. Slipknot is good, but they are just noise compared to these guys. These guys are actual metal. Absolutely amazing band, I recommend you listen to their songs indestructible, asylum, the animal, stricken, down with the sickness, inside the fire, the vengeful one, stupify, ten thousand fists, etc. because they are incredible. Amazing band.
One of most diverse Nu-Metal bands out there. They got everything, from heavy stuff like Counterfeit, Stuck, Pollution to mellow songs The One, Walking Away, Re Arranged, hip hop ones like Combat Jazz, N2gether now and classic rap rock like Nookie, My Generation, Rollin etc. They also got great rhythm and flow in their songs. Durst can rap ok, sing good and his screams are just brutal. Bad things about them are that Durst is a douche and his voice sometimes sounds whiny
In my opinion deserves to be in top 5 definitely, along with LP, KoRn, Slipknot
Their first album was a nu metal masterpiece! I still love 3 dollar bill y'all. It's amazing. It's just too bad Mr durst let fame go to his head. The second album has some memorable stuff but it was the beginning of the end for me. Fred just started trying to be taken seriously as a rapper period. He stopped being a rap/rock singer for an awesome rap/rock band and started trying to be a rapper. Everything they have done since the second album ( including some of the second album), to me, has been garbage. Absolute garbage. Until they go back to their roots they will never make a good album again. Basically if they would have continued to make good music like 3DBY then I would easily put them in top five but since they only accomplished one and a half-ish good albums I would put them in the ten-fifteen-ish range.
Limp Bizkit is one of the bands that never gets bad or boring. The metal sound that Wes, Sam and John produce, mixed with Fred texts and DJ Lethal scratching makes a truly energetic and aggressive nu-metal. And as you can see, even their newest album, Gold Cobra, is keeping this magnificent style. This can't be said about Linkin Park, for example, as their 2 last albums (Living things and a Thousand Suns) are a mix of synth-rock with pop-rock. That's why Limp Bizkit deserve a higher place in this board
Limp Bizkit is perhaps the band that started the nu metal genre along with Korn, but I think they describe the genre better than any other band, from the rapping, the classic metal in the guitar chords, to the timed beat of the drums. And all though the years have been harsh on Limp Bizkit with the departure of Wes, and Fred's scream changing, they still try and put a lot of effort into their music therefore I think they should be in the top 5.
As much as I hate to admit it pod people from planet suck are definitely nu metal and are gonna have some payment on death to do because of how corny they are but I admit also that I don't hate all their music. Just a lot of it. Most if I'm being honest but that's my opinion. They just don't really do anything for me. They are just so on the nose with their sound and lyrics that it's corny to me. That doesn't mean to say they don't sound good and have talent. They belong on this list and even though I'm not really a fan I'd put them in the 20-25 area.
They always get me with their exceptionally beautiful lyrics. Sonny's voice is just mind-blowing. Also love the many guitar solos that they incorporate. A strong band with an even stronger soul! Their verses are so damn catchy! P.O. D would be my number one by far followed by Korn, Ill nino and Kazzer
The rap and singing of the same person... It never feels like it... When he raps it feels he is a pro only rapper... When he sings he feels just like a singer and when he screams he puts the level of chester in it 8)
The songs everyone knows them for aren't all that great. But definitely check out their albums "Brown" and "Southtown". Both are underrated gems.
Every song is uniquely perfect. If you were to define Nu Metal, this would be it. Mudvayne has a good grasp on the concept of Nu Metal. Though they sometimes use riffs more than once, I can agree they are one of the best Nu Metal bands my ears have ever been graced to listen to.
Eh. Their first album was definitely an avant-garde masterpiece that will likely never be matched again in terms of quality. But they really fell off the map afterwards. Not to mention the fact that their lead singer went on to form the god-awful Hellyeah.
Ok definitely the best but their not nu metal most of these bands aren't their just metal and Call of Duty is death metal but anyway mudvayne is amazing not a lot of people have heard of them but they truly are amazing. The best
Should be higher. WAY higher. Their lyrics and riffs really get to me. Nothing To Gein and The Patient Mental are two of my all-time favourite songs.
Which first album? I've been following you guys since they were on a show called The Box on regular T.V.. They have the first album, dysfunction, which is pretty radio-friendly, the next two Were Real Radio friendly. But, the first was called Tormented, that had a lot to do with his (aaron's) previous relationship...so, you other boys out there, with exes can guess how raw and dark these lyrics were! Especially a song on there called 4 walls. Kind of cool, though, that he and his daughter went on to make some music together, even if it is country music. Interesting factoid: his daughter Zooey, was named after EX Alice in Chains frontman, Layne Staley's daughter.
Aaahhh...Alice In Chains... top five any kind of music bands. thanks for reading... I'm sure I'll have something to say about Slipknot. Top 3 for me...lol
oh, also, I hate the term nu-metal. Probably somebody very young made that up. Just stick to like 10 basic genres not 53! Things like this I would make life way too ...more
I don't know how a band can sell out any worse than they did. Oh and they don't belong on this list at all. I love their first album. It is a masterpiece. Really, It is. Then album number two came and it was this radio friendly, wonderfully catchy album and I hated it. That's not to say that it's not good. It is. I admit that. Most of the stuff they've done has been great. But when you consider what kind of band they most likely would have been if not for them selling out and making radio songs instead of staying true to the music and making the music they wanted to make and not what all the douche bags who have taken over the rock stations and music television channels want to hear, it really makes you loose all respect for them and their music. Look I understand that you want to be successful in the music industry and make some money too but selling out is not the way. They still would've been big if they would have continued making the music the way they had been. It just woulda ...more
Mike's chunky guitar riffs is like an orgasm to listen to. It's SO GOOD! (dunno if that made sense). But most notably what makes Staind so significant is Aaron's vocals and lyrics. He has such a cool voice which I don't know how to describe which suits the lyrics of the songs based on depression, isolation and many other feelings of his. Staind is definitely is one of my favourites with Korn and Limp Bizkit. The one word to describe them is UNDERRATED.
Staind's self-titled album in 2011 is one of the best nu metal albums of recent years. They went soft in 14 Shades of Grey, Chapter V and Illusion of Progress, but returned to their usual heavy sound in this kick ass album. Great band. Certainly deserves to be in the to 10.
This is another example of text book nu metal. I admit, when they came out with their first album I bought it cause I liked it and I still like some of it to this day but then their second album came out and I couldn't believe the garbage I was hearing! Absolute trash. Horribly horrendous. Nothing like their first album. I understand bands trying new things but this didn't sound anything like the same band. It was a nightmare. They sold out so bad! They started banging it out to the cheap seats! Point made? Good. First album nu metal? Sure. Everything after? Not a snowflakes chance in Hell! Taking that into consideration I'd put them somewhere in the #55-60ish.
They should be in the top 5! Not 11! What? They belong with Korn, System of a Down, Slipknot, and LP at the top. LAST RESORT! Limp Bizkit can't compete with that. No more Wes Borland no more limp bizkit. Plain and simple
These are one of the only bands I could consider nu metal on this list, and they really were only nu metal for Infest. Does no one no what nu metal means anymore?
Greatest band alive. The lyrics mean something and dig deep. Jacoby is an amazing front man and the rest of the group, Tony, Tobin, Jerry... are wickedly talented. Nothing gets me more amped than listening to PR.
I tried so hard to like these guys and I do on some levels but I just don't like the lead singer. Or better put, the way he sings. I like the music and when the other guy screams etc but the guy singing just ruins it for me. His singing style is just stupid to me. If he sang better I think they'd be up there with or at least near-ish slipknot. (I know, I know, mushroom head was around first. Wah, wah shut up about it.) It doesn't change the fact that slipknot is just all around better in every way. Anyway, these guys definitely have a place on this list. To me it's just farther down it.
Most original deep and dark band ever. They feel really special to me. First the music of course, The industrial rap and the guitars and keyboard are great, but they manage to take me away to the nightmares in my childhood. The illustrations in scary books about forests and witches come to life when I listen songs like Soitaire Unraveling and 43. Mushroomhead deserves to be in the top 10. They are to my opinion the only good Nu-metal band.
It is unbelievable! Mushroomhead number 25... They own Linkin Park at ass!
And they are much better than Slipknot really. And here is many bands which even not nu metal.. And they own this list anyway. And Mushroomhead kick ass to every band here! Except mudvayne and godsmack
Mushroomhead is one of the most original and unique bands out their. The only reason I can think of not to give them a chance is because of peoples prejudice against Nu-Metal. But trust me even if you don't like them at first keep listening they'll grow on you.
Coal Chamber was the first nu-metal band to add in influences taken from black metal, such as their vocals. This is most apparent in their "Dark Days" album (my personal favorite). However, while they do have a plethora of good songs: Rowboat, My Frustration, Fiend, Empty Jar, Big Truck, etc.
They also have a few bad ones: Alienate Me, everything from Chamber Music (except Shock the Monkey).
They are creators of this true nu metal sound, which is based on really simple and raw riffs supported by very fast and powerful drums. They are also creators of that unique dark image and haircuts, which is copied by another million of nu metal bands. They have done a lot for nu metal music and they deserve better position in this list
Meegs Rascon is the true creator of nu metal sound. Raw and simple riffs that create so much power it's insane. Dez Fafara's vocals then completely transform the song itself into a deep and rich experience. Bassist nadja puelen and drummer mike cox add even more to the music with active pickup basses for an added "slapping" sound and a lot of snare and bass hitting from the drums. Easily the best nu metal band of all time.
These guys (and gal) are hit and miss with me. Love the first album. Like the second. Everything else is good too, including devil driver. I'd say top 15. where in that list I don't know.
I like taproot. Good stuff. I guess you can just barley set them on the nu metal shelf. I picked up their first album back when it came out. From beginning to end it is really good. The albums afterwards are ok, though I find I don't like any of them near as much as the first. I'd put them into the #25-30.
Taproot is like Korn or Slipknot. If you like those you'll like Taproot too. Great songs like Like Time and Poem can get you off your feet. Very good band
Taproot is a great band, they should be at least in the top 10, if not the top 5. They have awesome tunes like Poem, Again & Again, I, Fractured etc.
Saw them live many times. Must say they always prove to be genuine metal contenders and hopefully come back at some point
In my opinion staticX should be like top 5! If they aren't nu metal then no one listed here is. RIP Wayne static. Let me say that that statement (about them being in the top 5) was in no way influenced by Wayne statics passing. They truly are the embodiment of nu metal! I've been listening to all types of metal/rock since I was 11 and I'm 33 as of 7/28/15. A lot of music has passed through these ears. The first beginnings of the nu metal genre was starting at the time I started taking a interest in music and after a few years as the genre became what is roughly today, static x is definitely the embodiment of that genre. It's just sad that today it's a dying, dwindling breed of music.
I think of Static-X more like Ministry than associating them with Nu-Metal acts. They definitely have some elements of Nu-Metal but I don't know that I would lump them in with Nu-Metal.
Dale again yes it's so sad that wayine isint around eny more he was really cool he had good hair and a good voice and good music and I am very influents by his music RIP Wayine static and push it is my favorite work out track in the gym.
Static-X is tried and true. My favorite band out there. They give it all on every song.
They have lost a step in the past few years, but the 6 previous amazing studio albums more than make up for it. No other band has even 4 albums that good, collectively. 7D rocked from '97 to '06... Longer than anyone did, at that level. 37'th is a disgrace. Some of the other bands higher plain suck!
Should be higher to be honest, like around 7 or 8. "Home" and "Seasons" are some of the primest examples of nu-metal at its best when it comes to mixing catchy hooks, melodies and aggression altogether.
Very underrated band. Check out their first two albums for some of the best Nu Metal
Underrated, great, amazing.. insert more adjectives here. I first heard them in Afghanistan and I was hooked.
As far as nu-metal goes, nobody does it better than Ill Nino. No metal band fuses together radio friendly hooks, beautiful melodies, aggression, variety, and overall balance better than these guys. And their Latin influences only make them even more unique. Even if you aren't a fan of nu-metal, anyone who likes any kind of metal owes it to themselves to check out these guys.
These guys definitely deserve to be here. They are really good. I can't say I like every song they've done but the majority is awesome. Honestly though I think there are a few other bands that deserve these top spots just a little more. I'd put these guys in the 15-20 space.
So underrated. But they have epic songs. Don't believe me, look up, This is War, Finger Painting with the Enemy, My Resurrection, Liar.
I love this band, nu metal with the latin music. Awesome combination.
I don't understand why this is 36? Everyone knows who RATM are.
Their not nu metal.
Rapping with downtuned guitars =/= nu metal.
The only good nu metal band
They are number 4 to me
Honestly, Avenged Sevenfold is not nu metal. They are officially metalcore, heavy metal, and hard rock. Drowning Pool deserves to be at the TOP Tens. Try listening to Bodies and Sinner. They are great nu metal songs to listen.
Their career died with the amazing vocalist known as Dave Williams. Seriously their first album "sinner" was a killer album
Their first album, "Sinner" was amazing. Sadly, they stopped being good when Dave Williams died.
I prefer KoRn or Slipknot but I simply love the album Sinner, is simply beautiful and brutal
Can't believe now one knows! Easily Numero uno...! Follow Max Illidge's Tracks to a band called Black Market Hero and Now With daggers Drawn... Long story look it up!
That band have to be in top 15, just listen to their last album Fire at Zero Gravity!
Great Band, Amazing lyrics and the vocals get you hooked!
I still love -40 summer I just listened to them today..
I'm extremely surprised to see them this high, not that I don't like them, I totally do. But I had no idea they were this popular. Also the cover art for their only album is disgusting and unnecessary.
Skrape was really good at what they did. I wish they were still around..
Isolated is the best nu metal song ever
Skrape is underrated as heck.
Very great band, Click Click Bomm is their the best. It's sad, their lead vocalist Josey Scott was leave the band.
These guys are awesome! They should be number one easily
These guys are really good. Many of their songs has been chosen as ppb for WWE main events. Let me name some. ALWAYS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, HUNT you DIWN, TIME TO SHINE, KING OF THE STEREO, CLICK CLICK BOOM
Very underrated. Should be much higher on the list
So I'm just glad they made the top 40
The best nu-metal underground
I honestly think they should be higher on the list. But they aren't as good as they used to be when they changed the singer.
One of the best bands ever formed sad lyrics moving guitars awesome bass and hard hitting DRUMMING
My favorite, until they changed the singer.
Best but waste
These guys are the kings off nu metal they made a song called I stand alone
Godsmack is very good. Way to low on this list.
Garbage, Alice in Chains ripoff.
Needs to be way higher on list